Ragnaros is a Stupid Jerk

There are only a few bosses in WoW that I’m just SICK OF.  Mimiron, that took weeks to kill.  Lich King which took over 100 attempts.  I looked.  My first post about the Lich King fight was August 18, 2010.  We defeated him November 16, 2010.  That is 3 months of… well Hell.

And now Ragnaros.

I know, progression takes a lot of tries and learning, but knowing that I’m in for a night of 10-15 wipes is really disheartening.  To answer Beru’s Question: Are 400 pulls fun? NO.

I feel like I have nothing new to write about because all I am doing is the same old thing week after week.  It’s like groundhog day.

Anyone else stuck on that jerky firelord?  Come, cheer me up.

Comments

Ragnaros is a Stupid Jerk — 25 Comments

  1. Ya we finally the fire bastard last week after over a month of countless wipes. It was very frustrating and tension was definitely creeping into the raid team.

  2. I managed to dead him with my previous guild after 122 wipes. Then I moved guild and I’m back on him again! We don’t often get to have a try but are managing to get to the ZOMG METEOR! phase once or twice in a raid night. Hang in there – he will die – well, he won’t actually – he will do an Arthas and p*ss off at 10% but meh – there’s a chest with phat loots and an achievement and that’s what counts :)

    What’s that – doing it with friends? THAT is more rewarding. Even if I have another 100 wipes on him, this time I am happy because I am doing it with nice people – I ignore my previous kill because it didn’t mean much to me.

    You have a great group of friends – I hope you can all keep your chins/peckers up and get him to drop his chest soon.

  3. Yeah, I’m stuck there in repetitive Firelord hell with you, sadly.

    I think that, for me, the biggest problem with the Ragnaros encounter is that it is a multi-phase encounter which, in a single-player game, would (assuming solid game design philosophy) have save checkpoints at each phase. However, since it’s an MMO (and seriously, why do we have to cling to outdated tropes separating the MMO vs. single-player design philosophies?) we always have to run the whole fight over again from the very start, even if we’ve proved that we can make it through to the point where we’re working on progression/learning. As Beru points out in that post you linked to, this means that in order to keep learning about, for example, the best way to deal with the final set of Seeds/Elementals as we hit 40% on Rag and head into the second transition, we’re required to repeat the first phase, the first transition, and the bulk of the second phase over and over and over again just to get back to that point where we’re still learning stuff. This is decidedly NOT FUN, and worse, it leads to people getting worn out more quickly and thus making mistakes in the earlier phases that we have already learned due to tiredness/sloppiness/being annoyed/whatever. A night of working on Rag risks devolving into a series of horribly messy attempts where we can’t even get past the first transition just because we reach the point where we’re collectively sick of having to work back through that transition for the 15th time just to get to the actual part of the fight we’re working on.

    The best (only?) way to handle it seems to be to limit the amount of time spent working repeatedly on the same boss encounter. However, there are two major problems with that. First, in general for all guilds, there’s no other option to keep busy raiding in T12. At least in T11, if Cho’gall was giving you trouble and leading to frustration, you could take the raid to BWD or Four Winds and work on something else. If Rag is causing too much frustration, then your only option in current content is to just stop. Second, for a more “casual” guild like ours, we just don’t have the available raiding time to allow us to get enjoyment out of this style of progression that focuses on such high amounts of repetition.

    I think the solution is a simple one of allowing some sort of checkpoints in such large multi-phase encounters like Ragnaros, and they could even reset each week. But I fear that the hardcore heroic-raiding mentality that seems to be the baseline among the Blizzard development team would never allow for that kind of flexibility (not to even mention the tremendous outcry from the “players” who consider themselves to be hardcore).

    • One thing the Straw Hat Pirates did for a while was to work on Ragnaros at the *beginning* of the week rather than only at the end. We’d spend our first raid night of the week working on him for an hour or two, and then reset the instance and start over. Since no boss had been killed, nobody got locked to the previous instance.

      I agree about the general issue, but I think he’s reasonably well tuned as the big boss at the end of the tier. Blizzard has done a good job of providing some amount of raiding content for any level of gear and time-commitment.

  4. I’m right there with you – only we are a NORMAL mode guild (10 men).

    We’re casual (we only raid 6 hours a wekk top), we don’t even have the same exact composition of people every time, and WE ARE SICK AND BORED OF RAGNAROS.

    As of late, slowly and painfully killing ourselves, instead of him, is starting to look like a better way to spend time.

    • Oh, Zel and I maybe could have been more clear about that one…Yeah, we are totally casual with just two nights of scheduled progression raiding each week, no more than 3 hours per night. And all the frustration that we’re discussing here is caused solely by work on normal-mode Rags. I hesitate to think about how angry I might be about the Ragnaros encounter design if we were working on heroic-mode.

      • We’re not the only ones then! I felt like we were, and that everyone was secretly laughing behind our backs at our n00bness…^^;;

        But yeah, well, good luck to you!
        Let’s all hope we can down the jerk before patch 4.3 drops, thus reasserting our confidence in ourselves. ;p

  5. Yeah, it took us *weeks* to get it too.

    Actually, what worked for us was to cut to 2 healers, assign each dps an add (adds were our biggest cause of wipes), then have everyone stand on the right side of the platform instead of using the whole platform. When the seeds came out, we moved to the left. When seeds came there, we moved back to the right. We downed him maybe 10 attempts after the strat change.

    • The idea of 2 healers has been tossed around, but people are still taking avoidable damage, and with 2 healers we wouldn’t be able to save anyone who made one little mistake. Part of people taking avoidable damage is that we go in with a different crew each week, and some people have more practice than others.

      • We run with a different team each week as well and had the same worries. I had to insist a lot, and even at that, it wasn’t until the raid leader killed Rags in a pug using two mediocre healers that he thought “oh wait, our healers are way better than these idiots, maybe we can do this too.”

        I think just knowing that no one is going to clean up for their mistakes forces people to pay more attention. And dying to stupid stuff instead of being saved is good in the long run. People learn faster when there’s an immediate consequence to their mistake. When we stopped healing through crap, we had more deaths at first, but those who died to mistakes usually only ever died once to that mistake.

        • Our problem is kind of different, none of our healers want to be left out of that final kill, and only one of the three of us primary healers is really good enough DPS to do it in a different role, and he’s our primary tank healer. Zel has two heal specs, holy/disc, and I’m a terrible DPS player in general, so going to 2 healers means one of our hardworking team is cannibalizing their own raid spot. I suppose it might be the price we pay for team success but I’m not quite ready to do it yet, especially while we’re still learning the dance.

  6. Looks like, aside from random issues, the Molten Elementals are out of control. If you can group them together for killing then you’ll be able to rotate stuns while AoE’ing them down.

    After that, I can only say you’re gimping yourself without a Paladin healer. ;)

    Seriously, good luck. Even with all the frustration it’s a fun fight.

  7. Yup, off to try him again in uh…oh half an hour, gotta log on or I’ll be late for raid invite.
    I wish you luck, you wish me luck? ….fair trade, no? ^^

  8. My guild defeated him while I was out of town. The next week we failed on him, though it was close despite having to PUG three spots. I stopped playing shortly after.

    Possibly burnout, but in the long run, it was the right thing for me to do.

    The main problems with Firelands was that it was Firelands. That’s all. No other options or differences.

    My understanding is the guild got him again almost a month later. Now they’re having better luck with him and have two of the hard modes down.

    • Firelands is so… draining. I almost want to defeat him AFTER the next patch because by then Holy priests will be a LOT stronger… and I’ll feel less spazzy.

  9. ouch, rag is a evil evil fireman. Took our guild a week or two to down him. But keep on plugging, it just takes a click and things will fall into place. :)

  10. ya he was a meanie .. we started too late because of summmer and had progressed on him for just 2 lockout and the nerfs came , and he rolled over coughed his loots. Now we are 6/7hm and no one even wanna try him on hardmode as we are sick and tired of seeing him , so we just clear 6hm and have nice chat with him on normal mode every week,feels kinda satisfying for all the grief he gave us pre nerf. And dont feel bad if you havent killed him yet as we still occasionally wipe to him due to collective derping on adds :P .

    hope you guys find your rhythm , once everyone is used to the dance its a simple fight to be honest.Btw listen to ophelie’s tips , as they are really sound tips and might help on whatever is wiping you.Also if possible write in a future post about whats causing the wipes/particular stage of fight which is causing you troubles ,we might be able to help you :)

  11. He does suck. We switched to a two-heals model early and it worked, because the paladin/druid one two punch is very powerful. It also forced people to get better at not dying. And we often make our disc (well, shadow for this fight) priest pop bubbles because she can shield herself. Or we make Slice do it because nobody really minds seeing him go splat.

    The key is definitely getting everyone enough practice on the fight that they know it. Once that happens it’s just a matter of time although our kills so far have all had a bit of a “whoa, he’s dead” feel.

  12. First of love reading your site cheers this old priest up second we managed to down rag tonight for first time Whooo funny thing is our main tank is away so had a guildy stand in on his Druid and I must say bear/warrior was so much easier to run than dk/ warrior with our pala,disc and holy priest heals setup keep at it our kill run was the sloppiest of the night sons hit on first hammer and we ended up with 3 metiors in last phase think we just lucked out

    • We usually run with 2 pallies as tanks and a holy priest/ disc priest / resto druid heal team. Sometimes the DK has to fill in, and DK’s are hard to heal! It’s nothing they DO, it’s just hard to heal em. Bears are cheaters.

  13. You’re not gonna like this. I’ve been a hunter forever and just geared up a Shaman to heal. I joined a raiding guild to “learn how to heal” and the first night we went to Firelands. We went 7/7 and wiped only once on Ragnaros before downing him. By that time in the raid I had switched to DPS to allow a healer who knew what they were doing to take over. We basically 9 manned Rag as I died while Ragnaros still had about 70% health and it was awesome to watch these guys take down rag with only 9!

  14. Hey

    I run a guild which I think in many ways is similar to yours in that many people have families / kids etc and while we have people who love to raid, we don’t do regular availability that well.

    We do run raids weekly and we’e finally managed to get to a point where Ragnaros goes down each week. I think it took 49 wipes to get him first try and then an ever decreasing amount of wipes since then each go.

    Not sure if you’d be interested but I’d gladly spare some time to have a chat on our vent server or what not to see if there’s anything in the approaches we took that might be useful.

    I’ve had a look through your WOL data for your recent few raids and there’s a few things there to look at perhaps and some tools to help analyse stuff.

    Running with a varied squad does make it harder to achieve quickly but it’s worth the effort. Some things that helped us:

    General:

    2 healing

    Echoing earlier comments, running a 2 healer mix here was a huge help for us. Aside from seeds and traps there is really very little raid damage of an unavoidable sort going about (especially in P3 where there’s none). We use a Druid Pally when we have our “best” people there but have 2 healed with a shaman / druid and some other mixes. The real advantage of 2 healing is the extra DPS for seeds and son management during transitions

    Phase 1: Noone should ever really die here. While it’s a bit glib, to stand a reasonable chance of downing Rag people cannot get hit by traps / waves. If this is still happening it’s worth a thought about positioning and comms to see if that can be avoided. (I must irritate the crap out of my entire guild by calling locations and timings for all hammer smashs but it does help to keep em safe.)

    Transitions: I think this is really the key to the fight. If you can get P1 and P2 transitions down somewhat reliably the rest of it falls into place.

    We’re not really well enough organised to have specific assignments for people versus sons. So we try to control the key positions, the 2 sons near hammer on a wide positioning and the 1 closest on either side in the middle. It really helps to have dps on ventrilo etc who can control this themselves and tell people to go away from their area if its covered.

    It took us ages to get over the mad panic syndrome and find all dps had rushed to 1 side leaving the other unmanaged.

    Your dps roster on WOL looks low on people with stuns so I think you just need to make sure you burst things quickly. We get people to focus on bursting sons to 50% to slow them then swapping to any moving fast rather than purely dpsing the target to zero which maybe worth trying.

    Phase 2: P2 can be tricky and it might be worth trying several different options here tactics wise. We split into p2 groups and stay and either end of the platform to dps, when seeds are on their way down we group at the very middle of his platform to AOE the seeds and then split again. Tricky thing here is the combination of seeds with floor AOE / smash so we group at the back edge of the floor AOE would be if it spawns next to Rag. This makes it quick and easy to run back or forward a couple of feet. I

    Phase 2 transition: is just a slightly more complex version of P1 with the burning flames debuff and the 2 extra Scions to manage. Its good to get people with the debuff to run to the back of the platform here but again its really about being able to manage the sons sensibly.

    Phase 3:

    Was a massive pain in the ass for quite a while as we started with a strategy of trying to kite the meteors which frankly was a disaster. Ever since we switched to a split strategy it’s worked so much better. Basically as in Phase 2 we split into 2 groups at either end of the platform, this means that meteors can be knocked back and will spend much of the time travelling from 1 side to the other through the lava. As long as there is at least 1 ranged on either side (or even the healers who should have little to do in P3) it’s easy to manage 2 to 3 meteors by which time he should be dead.

    The other advantage of the split approach is if you keep the tanks in 1 group, any melee (not that you have many I think) can easily be in the opposite group to be “behind” the boss to improve dps.

    Anyways – it is certainly an annoying fight but is rewarding once you’ve got it done and once he’s died a couple of times and things have clicked into place it works much more smoothly from then on. Then you can look forward to nightmare loot drop RNG and all the other fun :)

    There are a few other things I’ve picked up from WOL that might help but not ideal to cover them all here (this is already way more text than is sensible in a commenting thread). Do let me know if you’d like to chat anything over in more detail. I don’t at all to profess to be an elite raider, it’s more than I felt our pain when reading your post and I think we came from a similar position. It may be that some of the videos and resources I used could benefit you as well.

    Either way – I do enjoy the posts here and GL in your endeavours to get him down!